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General IT ManagementDiscussion of challenges facing IT management including articles published throughout the Earthweb IT Management network at Datamation, eSecurityPlanet and CIO Update.
Note: This is still a beta release. Do not install it on production machines.
However, I will download 7.10 using your link and attempt to boot and test it on a non-production Dell D620 simply to prove a point. I know upfront that the ExpressCard will not work in any *nix environment.
Downloading 700MB and burning the CD will take a few minutes. Hopefully I can get it done and test for missing drivers within the next hour before lunch.
Now you've got me curious. Where did you go that said 7.10 was beta? Very odd.
Look, my whole point has been, don't take my word for it. Try it out on the very hardware under consideration. If it works, great. If it doesn't work, well, at least you know.
Ubuntu 7.10 booted, but that was all.
It couldn't find the nVidia video drivers even when it tried to download them over the internet from wherver the place that was hard coded in the OS.
The mouse worked.
The root HD filesystem was readable, but the sub-folders were not.
The TPM, biometrics, etc. did not work because of lack of drivers.
I rest my case. I fully agree with the article. Drivers are simply lacking for Ubuntu.
I already know. This is just an exercise to convince you that there is a serious lack drivers limiting the ability to switch from Windows to Ubuntu.
I'm sorry that you feel you need to convince me, someone you've not met, and never will. If you had health insurance, I might recommend seeing someone about that. But don't bother.
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It couldn't find the nVidia video drivers even when it tried to download them over the internet . . .
Did you have any internet connection? I have found that networks with DHCP work automatically, but manual setups require, well, setup. (Punching in gateway addresses, etc.)
Now, before you get your underpants in a wad screaming "but it should just work!!", let me say that my premise in this thread, is just that. So, if it doesn't work for you, now you have proof -- at least on that machine.
See, with real experience, rather than empty chest beating, I can be rather agreeable.
So my advice to you, with respect to that machine, at least, is to not use Ubuntu (even if your predisposition against it didn't exist). Cease with your wild generalizations though. We all waded through three months worth of them yesterday.
However, let me say just a bit more. It never occurred to me to hand one of my acquaintances a Ubuntu cd and send him home to install it by himself. I suppose I could have, I just always assumed I'd install it for them, get the hardware working, etc. And that's what I've done. Some of my friends (Windows users and Ubuntu users) would rather throw their machines in the trash and buy a new one before they'd install ANY OS, even Windows. That's foreign thinking to me (gee, all that hardware in the trash???), but that's them.
I agree that asking a newbie to get hardware working (on Windows or Linux) would be an absolute turn-off for them. I think we can agree on that. But asking them to install and configure any OS by themselves with no prior experience, is also asking for disappointment, even if the OS would be nearly perfect for them (as I maintain, and you do not) after installation.
So I always go over, spend an evening installing/configuring everything, and give them a brief tour of where things are and what to expect.
I ran 7.10 straight from the bootable CD downloaded from your link.
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Originally Posted by parma
Most drivers are built into the kernel. It doesn't work like windows works, where drivers are a separate install. Bluetooth, for instance, is not likely to be mentioned anywhere, not because its not supported, but because it "just works."
The real way to see what works (and, on occasion, what doesn't), is to pop in a live CD and reboot. Up will come a fully functional test machine on your hardware.
NOT! The test machine was not functional with Ubuntu.
This seems to be a huge overstatement on your part because it "just doesn't work". I did not need to run a test to know that. The test was for your education, not mine.
I had full internet connectivity using Ethernet. Neither 802.11g nor Bluetooth worked.
I use static IP addresses on both the private and public networks.
About the only other things that worked - pointing stick, keyboard and partial functionality of the LCD display. I did not check USB, serial or modem ports. I didn't know how to check the resolution, but it did not seem that Ubuntu was running in the native 1440x900 pixel mode.
An entire evening to install, configure and a brief tour of Ubunto???
My clean installation of Windows Vista that replaced Windows XP Pro took less than 60 minutes including custom configuration to meet my needs.
The full MS Office 2007 suite took a few minutes more mainly to update the registry.
I'll reiterate that folks will not leave Windows behind if they can't find drivers for their hardware. Only the most dedicated techie will undertake a scavenger hunt to force *nix to work with partial functionality.
Some day someone will think about writing drivers for current hardware. Even 3 year old October 2004 TPM hardware is not supported in Ubuntu. I wonder how long it will take to get drivers for the newer spec TPM hardware that is in widespread use.
Let me make sure I have this straight: it didn't work perfectly on one machine, for someone who was heavily invested in it not working, and we can thus extrapolate from that that it is worthless for all users. Did I get that right?
Permit me to offer you some career advice: never agree to be an expert witness. On cross-examination, your over-simplifications, broad generalizations and unfounded pontifications will have opposing counsel gleefully gutting you with your own words, to the utter amusement of the rest of the courtroom. I've watched that happen: everyone in the room is laughing except one very red-faced guy on the stand.
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Good luck proselytizing your project.
It's not my project, but I'll gladly take credit for being associated with it.
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An entire evening to install, configure and a brief tour of Ubunto???
Did I say an "entire evening?" It's my experience that people enjoy having someone around during the initial stages of use to answer basic questions, like, "Where will all my stuff be on the hard drive." So I hang around to make sure the fit is right.
The actual install, even on your Frankenstein machine, would be about 20-25 minutes, depending on the speed of the hard drive and the speed of the optical drive. And that includes applications too.
But you never responded to where on the web 7.10 was labeled beta, and not for production machines. Where was that?
My machine is not a Frankenstein machine. It is simply an older mainstream Dell Latitude similar to those that kids carry to school each day. Dell and HP are the largest makers of personal computers. They are mainstream products.
Ubuntu will not work on any notebook with an nVidia graphics card which is standard in most Dell notebooks.
Ubuntu will not work with Bluetooth.
Ubuntu will not work with a fingerprint reader that is standard in most Dell notebooks.
Ubuntu will not work with TPM or a SecurCard slot that is standard in most Dell and HP notebooks.
Ubuntu will not work with ExpressCards that are standard in most notebooks.
IMO Ubuntu works with striped down or home built PC's that are quickly becoming legacy hardware. Ubuntu does not work with current multimedia PC's meant for entertainment centers and home theaters.
At best Ubuntu is a niche player and will continue to be one until it can support current hardware.
Sorry -- I saw you wrote Google above, but you didn't tie the context to my query. Now, the only page when I google "Ubuntu 7.10" that mentions "beta" is the second hit, and your language is on that page -- and right under it says "The final stable version will be released in October 2007." How does one of your attention to detail miss something like that??
Now, this is the last I'm going to beat this dead horse. So, pay attention. You seem to think that if it doesn't work on your machine it is impossible to work on any machine. (And some of what you thought didn't work, may, in fact, have worked, only you didn't realize how to determine that.) But lets, arguendo, assume that those items did not work on your machine.
Here is where you, ua549, leave rational argument behind: One short trial is not indicative of what every user would experience.
For instance:
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Ubuntu will not work on any notebook with an nVidia graphics card which is standard in most Dell notebooks.
Emphasis there is mine.
I'm sure you must be right, and the millions of people using this every day must be wrong (are you getting my sarcasm, here? I can't be sure.)
Note, not "didn't work on my laptop," but "will not work."
I post these links with full awareness that the premise of the thread would be that a new user would not want to hunt something down for it to work. And this is inconsistent. My audience for this section is solely for the chest-beaters out there, who, with little or no experience in the matter, insist that they know more than everyone else on the subject.
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IMO Ubuntu works with . . .
That sort of assertion is not opinion-based. It's fact based, one way or the other. Learn the difference.
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Ubuntu does not work with current multimedia PC's meant for entertainment centers and home theaters.
Snatched right out of the air, with no justification, as if it came down on Moses' tablets.
Arguing with you is like arguing with Dwight Schrute of NBC's comedy series "The Office." It's possible, of course, but one feels like one should wash his hands afterward. (You'll say, no doubt, "I don't watch TV!") Which, of course, is exactly what Dwight would say.
So here's my final statement: Ubuntu works, and will be great for the vast majority of home users. Personally, I wouldn't just hand them a disk and send them on their way. (I'd install it for them.) Once past the initial setup users have a good time, virus and spyware free, with an abundance of applications, and not one, in my acquaintance, has wanted to revert back to Windows. That's very telling to me.
Post back ua549, if you wish; there will be no response from me. You are wasting my time. I'll be happy to respond to non-Schrute-like posts from others.
Everything "just works," and, as important, continues to do so.
You've really backed off your ""Everything ..." statement now that it is obvious that it should read "works with a subset of older hardware" if one is prepared to spend much time and effort looking for drivers.
You statements are patently WRONG, especially regarding multmedia, notebooks and current technology hardware. You just won't admit it
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Originally Posted by parma
Snatched right out of the air, with no justification, as if it came down on Moses' tablets.
You simply want me to provide the links because you are disinclined to visit manufacturer websites to discover that drivers are not available for other than Windows operating systems. How lazy!
A staple for home computers, mainstream multimedia tuner cards from HP, Dell, Avermedia, ... do not work with *nix. There are a limited number of non-current ATI multimedia products that have a Linux driver available. All have very extensive bug reports according to the ATI support site. (Google it.)
You can stay in your own little alternative world and imagine that Ubuntu "works for everything". Go back to sleep and dream some more.
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